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Amy Wang-Hiller 0:00

Hi everyone. Welcome back to David stripe musician podcast. This is your host Amy Wang-Hiller. Today's guest Adrienne and Erawan is a Canadian violinist who holds degrees from the Curtis Institute of Music, Yale University and Harvard grad school of education. He is also the founder of music inclusion program, which aims to help children with disability to learn instrumental music with our peers. In this episode, we discuss the diversity needs in the current classical world, the technique adaptation in music performance, and how to see strength throughout disabilities. All the shownotes will be on amywangviolin.com/podcast Without further ado, let's get into today's episode.

Welcome back to thrive x strive musician podcast and today we have Adrian in our podcast and trying to discuss a little bit more about disability and music, performance and music education. Please welcome Adrian, can you introduce yourself a little briefly about how you started? And what are you doing now with your music career?

Adrian Anantawan 1:36

Thank you, ma for inviting me on, it's a pleasure to be able to connect to a fellow violinist and also someone who encompasses in some part of their personal musical identity, disability as well. I was born without a right hand. And I remember when I was in fifth grade, our music teacher all want to start an instrument. That instrument was the recorder, which would have been very difficult for me to be able to play because there are just too many holes for all of my fingers. So my parents started looking at different options. I think that the trumpet was a very practical solution, but I didn't really like the sound of the instruments. So I chose the violin because it was a very beautiful sounding instrument I knew about disabled violinists is Itzhak Pearlman, who grew up with polio. And he was an inspiration to so I figured that I would try that. And I had an adaptation made for me, it's called a spatula, it's a cast the plaster cast that wraps around my small hand. And with the bowl, I use a aluminum tube to slide through it. And at the very end, it has a slot that can fit into the bowl holder, essentially. And I've been able to develop my own technique, and have a career as a musician, and educator and also advocate for folks with disabilities. And also hopefully classical music too.

Amy Wang-Hiller 3:32

Nice. Yeah, I see that you play as a soloist mostly. And the device by the way, it's like absolutely fascinating. It just really kind of comes organic because it's not extension extra part of it. I didn't know actually you chose violin, I thought your parents thought that it was a great idea. With rehab place that boat this kind of modification basically for you. And did you feel like growing up with the music study, ever feel like there was a kind of like a comparison or any kind of difficulty because of different device or different way to point.

Adrian Anantawan 4:16

So yes, you mentioned that I went to a rehabilitation hospital in Toronto, Canada to have my adaptation made and it was great. I mean, it was able to hold the bone as you said, there wasn't any extension of my arm or anything. I thought it was very simple. And when I first started when I sounded like most musicians, wasn't that great. So in terms of the sound, at least, and I think the challenge was to try to figure out what how much of it was because I was a beginner violinist and how much we can make modifications to the adaptation. going to help. As it turns out, it was mainly just developing my own technique in the end, and I've used the same adaptation ever since I've been 10 years old, I sometimes have challenges around like pit sacado, I think a lot of left hand. Sometimes I'm not able to use my full bow. So I've adapted by just doing different bowings more bow changes, for instance, because I probably use about 75% of the bow as like a full handed musician. And it seems to be okay for me, although like, it might look different, I always try to make sure that the sound is as musically compelling and beautiful as possible.

Amy Wang-Hiller 5:51

Yeah, I agree. For me, like, I also adapt a lot with my disability. And I, of course, had a long history of playing violin through when I was childhood, sort of like, you know, there's a perception of how it's to sound and you just try to adapt as much as possible closer to that version. Do you think as a soloist more was like stand out? As a soloist, like, you know, different? Does it hinders or exceeds like your career? Actually,

Adrian Anantawan 6:25

I think it's only helped in terms of being able to show people and classical music world that there are different ways to be able to not only be a musician, but a soloist as well. So, in a sense, like, I feel like I'm grateful to have something unique to offer, not only in terms of an interpretation, but just a very different way of producing sound. And I think it's only been a benefit to the work that I do as a soloist. I think that can be more challenging to play in an orchestra, or, like Jeremy said, from time to time, but even then, I think that so long as there are folks who are around that are understanding and are able to see pasts how you look when you play. Think that it becomes much more about just telling you a unique story through music. And people with disabilities have such unique stories that I'm glad that they are sharing them.

Amy Wang-Hiller 7:41

What's your favorite type of repertoire?

Adrian Anantawan 7:44

Well, I like a lot of very emotional human music, like things that are like song based, like, you know, like Brahms or Schubert. Like a lot of these composers from like the sort of late 19th century, German composers, I like playing contemporary music and exploring new voices. Specially as classical music continues to grow with a lot of different types of composers who are making music these days, it's nice to be able to premiere a piece or to be able to pair like a new work with an old work to try and find the connections between all those. So I found a lot of passion and just exploring that and and knowing that you don't ever have to be stuck with like one type of music to

Amy Wang-Hiller 8:44

Yeah. So through your music career, like you know, with your teachers, or professors, did you find they completely like changed the teaching styles or anything like that, trying to helping you out with the music you want to achieve? Or the certain level of playing?

Adrian Anantawan 9:04

I think they were very much the same with me as any other teacher. In terms of the big goals, like what do you do musically? What type of sound are you looking for? When we would talk about maybe a different way to do it than other students? Maybe it's a different type of boy. Maybe it's a different type of bow technique that can get to the same idea or sometimes it's just a little bit different altogether. And that's okay.

Amy Wang-Hiller 9:35

Can you share a little bit tips, you know, on like, all these German music, like, especially brands, a lot of stained, you know, sound required, like any tips on like, assisting to making that sustain sound?

Adrian Anantawan 9:49

Yeah, so I think that for me, it's about really controlling the boat changes, making sure that the boat changes the tip and the frogs feel as seamless as possible. So like versus near the tip of the bow, because it's lighter, to be able to compensate by adding some weight while you're there. And then the same thing at the frog where it's heavier, lighten up your arm a little bit. And I think that in combination with like sounding point, sometimes you need to get a little closer to the bridge or change speeds, those are all tools that you can use to sustain a sound. Because I need to balance out, like, being able to create a full sound with lots of ball speed. And at the same time, know that I can sort of make some bold changes more so than others. And in the hall, they use lines anyways.

Amy Wang-Hiller 10:46

Yeah, I agree like a lot of these basic techniques, and the principles like just always applies, like for me, I have to change angles for me to sustain at the tip. And so I have enough weight on weight to kind of compensate on that, too. So I believe there's no like restriction of repertory always can find some way of making it the best way of your plane.

Adrian Anantawan 11:12

Yeah, I'm very lucky in a sense that like, there's never been a piece that I wanted to play, but couldn't play. If there are certain things within a piece that might not be exactly the way it was intended, sometimes I just change it a little bit. And so long as the music intention is still there, I think that people would rather hear that then not playing it at all.

Amy Wang-Hiller 11:35

Yeah, in a way that the disability kind of makes us a little bit even more flexible in the way of like, you know, being your own experiment to list.

Adrian Anantawan 11:47

Yeah, exactly.

Amy Wang-Hiller 11:49

Yeah. So have you ever played in orchestras?

Adrian Anantawan 11:54

Yes, I have. I have continually put an orchestra since I was in high school. Continue to do some, like, professional work. As like it's small chamber orchestra from time to time. And, yeah, it's been a lovely experience to be able to continue being part of that community. And also know that I can do a bunch of things like disability doesn't mean that you have to follow one track within a music career, but you can do a lot of things and follow sort of what makes you happy.

Amy Wang-Hiller 12:34

So follow up with that question. I because you mentioned that you played a lot in the orchestras or like adaptations with your Boeing's or anything like that. How well are they they are accepting it? Are they really accommodating? Yeah, I think

Adrian Anantawan 12:50

that I check in with people just make sure if like, is it okay, if I check an extra bow here or there, or maybe I play less of the notes and fits Ocado? Generally, people have been okay with that. The lovely thing about an orchestra is that you don't have to play everything, like all the time, in terms of like, the parts, because it's the section so yes, I play maybe 99% of it. If there's a little tiny thing that I can't do, most people are willing to refer me.

Amy Wang-Hiller 13:20

Nice. So I think they're pretty, like accommodating and also, like accepting the there's the difference, and then there might be not completely like 100% all the time.

Adrian Anantawan 13:32

Yeah, I would say that, in my situation, please, there's been a lot of accommodation. I think it becomes different depending on your disability though, as well. Because I know that I've heard musicians who have troubles or challenges like with stage layout, or like assessable stairs and things like that, that can be its own different type of challenge that I'm aware of. And I'm very supportive of my colleagues who might be in those situations to make sure that they're accessible spaces for

Amy Wang-Hiller 14:12

Yeah, there was a few places that I played that it's not as accessible like they have stairs. But people are very accommodating. Like they I mean, of course they offered like you don't carry you up. Like it just make the best of it, what the environment is. But of course, like wish there can be a better like, you know, more accessible venues, follow those ADA guidelines and everything. I know that you also, you know, arcade a lot on the social media as well. I've been trying to create a community around you know, being disabled and then being a musician. I find that somehow for people later on become disabled is somehow holding them back on a lot more to continue their journey. I don't know if it is because like, you know, they, they are, of course mentioning of like trying to be perfect, it just not as good as they are before their disability. What do you think is the core difference at like for you to continue pursue any type of music that possible. And for some people just feel like they cannot continue building on their career because they become disabled, or any kind of encouraging words that you think it will be making a big mental shift that was saying?

Adrian Anantawan 15:35

Well, I think the biggest shift is, knowing that your disability is not a detriment to you, it's something that is unique, and is a strength, something that can allow you to share something unique to the world through your art. I think choir disabilities, and congenital disabilities are different in terms of like, identity shift. Like, for instance, I've always lived without a right arm. And I don't know how it is to be able to have two fully functioning arms, those who have acquired disabilities sort of understand before after mean, Beethoven was probably the first musical example I think about was genius and prodigy, and then became deaf in the middle of his life. And you see situations like him, for instance, and he was an incredible musician as well. So I think it really is what you do with those challenges in a way that allows you to explore and share your identity with others that is important. And to know that the world wants to hear these things. And our industry needs these things too.

Amy Wang-Hiller 16:54

Well, sometimes myself, like I have to admit, like, I also feel the fear of share certain struggles, because you as a, an abled musician, and you know, go through the regular auditions. And you like, what does other people think, as you have looking like less physical ability? I feel like it's valid fears. But as we're yours, you're saying that, you know, sometimes that can come strength? I don't know if there's a way that four people can overcome that fear.

Adrian Anantawan 17:29

Hmm, well, I think that you were just saying, finding examples. And being in community with people who are going through the same struggles can be really helpful. Finding time to spend with as many supportive people as possible, is also useful, whether they become you know, or are your friends or colleagues, teachers, to surround yourself in a way that the majority of your time are spent in those environments that are supportive. And then choose times to embrace the discomfort of like trying to adjust and adapt, but always have your anchor points of being able to know that you are supported and in an encouraging environment to continue playing despite those challenges.

Amy Wang-Hiller 18:16

Yeah, and not become competing with other people.

Adrian Anantawan 18:21

Yeah, the world in classical music is competitive in a way that like can be stressful, because there are limited amount of jobs compared to other industries sometimes. And everyone, if you get to a certain level are equally talented, if not more. So, I think that for me, again, it's like, I always tried to surround myself with people who are very good at what they did but weren't competitive, they were more supportive. And that, in the end, like we're all trying to do our best and whoever got the job, we celebrated as much as we could. Because we're only on our own path, and we can only grow our best. And the way to do that is to be able to surround yourself with people who are better than you or really good at what they do. And hopefully do that in a way that doesn't make you feel like you're not good enough, but just that we have different ways to inspire each other.

Amy Wang-Hiller 19:25

Yeah. For us to be surrounding with like people, you know, less competitive. I think it's very helpful, mental as well. To have less of a mentality of like, are you good enough? Have you ever feel that way? How did you overcome?

Adrian Anantawan 19:43

Yeah, I mean, there are definitely times where I felt like I was not able to do something and with others where and yeah, it can be a little scary at times to know that like, you might not be able to achieve a certain level that You might aspire to, I felt like that when I was younger, maybe. But these days, I think I'm much more comfortable with myself and being able to accept what I can give. And like, it doesn't mean that you don't push yourself. But it also means that you don't work against yourself when you're trying to always compare yourself to other people.

Amy Wang-Hiller 20:26

Yeah, I think like third time that we gradually grow, we have a better vision of how we are as individual. I feel like teachers are looking out for a certain belts and type of student that they feel like they were over achieved a certain level, almost like these people who have a little bit of physical disability has been almost like dismissed in initially. Now with you as a teacher, do you feel like that's still like a big, like hurdle? I would say?

Adrian Anantawan 21:03

Yeah, I think there's definitely hurdles and prejudices about what disabled person can do or not. I also think that the classroom is a world. Disability is underreported, in a sense that like, yes, you can see someone who's in a wheelchair. And there are a lot of invisible disabilities to you know, people who are dyslexic, for instance, or, you know, process in a different way, there are a lot of folks who like have like joint challenges, like issues between their wrists and things like that you don't really see on the outside, but then you realize and recognize that they struggle in their own ways to access music. So I think part of the challenge for us in terms of overcoming those hurdles is to really, again, like, de stigmatize disability and really have musicians talk about their challenges openly. So we can grow together, not only as a current community puts encourage younger people who have disabilities to do the same.

Amy Wang-Hiller 22:16

Yeah, definitely. I think, for me, as well, like become disabled, I feel like you become this individual in the whole entire orchestral group. But then it also helps a lot for, you know, like, your voice to be heard. And I think, was what you said, a lot of people their disability is not really that easily seen. There's a lot of invisible disability as well. And do you feel like your disability has helped a lot with your own teaching?

Adrian Anantawan 22:52

Yes, I would say so. It's one that allows me to try to think of many different types of solutions to a particular challenge. For instance, I, even if I'm teaching, so technically able bodied students on the violin, for instance, our bodies are all slightly different. Anyways, joints are different flexibility, different lengths of hands and arms and things like that. So it, I think, might be more subtle in terms of embracing those differences. But I think is very important as a tool to understand I've gone through a process myself that really focuses on the big goals, and then our bodies are just wasted, get there. But that path can be very different based on how you're built. I think it's helped me as a teacher, for sure.

Amy Wang-Hiller 23:44

So do you have any disabled kids? Students?

Adrian Anantawan 23:50

Yes, I do. I, I have several who have various types of limb differences, for playing the violin, and I've run a program for the past few years. For young, very young kids for different different types of disabilities, to be able to play a variety of instruments, it doesn't necessarily have to be just the violin, some of them do. Percussion instruments, some of them do like things that use a bit more technology. But there are always ways to be able to make a sound and to be able to do that in a way that expresses yourself.

Amy Wang-Hiller 24:27

Nice. I would really love to helping also a lot of young, disabled musicians especially like later on become disabled, and trying to encourage people to keep playing and I feel like music as a language for them to express themselves and losing that voice. It's kind of devastating almost.

Adrian Anantawan 24:53

So to be able to encourage a strong voice and a flexible voice are most important as a musician And then as I said before, people with disabilities definitely have a lot of those foundations of understanding what difference means. So to encourage that as possible through music is such a important thing.

Amy Wang-Hiller 25:15

Um, do you have one thing currently that you're working on that you want to kind of share?

Adrian Anantawan 25:21

Well, I am forming an ensemble at Berklee College. Ensemble comprised of musicians who have different types of disabilities on campus, and with some partner organizations, New England Conservatory, hopefully, but also Boston Conservatory. And really thinking of ways that we can do a little small group together as a course throughout the year to explore disability identity, everyone will come with their own sets of challenges. And we'll also commission music, from musicians who have disabilities themselves, and hopefully come up with some good concerts. One, hopefully in the end of December, and then also in March.

Amy Wang-Hiller 26:09

That's very nice. Yeah, this is one of my passion as well. Like, I'm hoping that I can group, an ensemble or even just like a string quartet to be performing and for nonprofit, or any kind of, you know, events. And so then, you know, like, we can share the stories and share our passions as a disabled group. Yeah,

Adrian Anantawan 26:36

that's beautiful. And I know that there are musicians disabilities around the world, so sure that you'll be able to find some and and make some great music, too.

Amy Wang-Hiller 26:45

Yeah, I'm hoping that there's going to be more voice coming out, you know, I'm amazed by the work that you're doing. But I also feel like, you know, we need a lot more in different colleges and universities.

Adrian Anantawan 26:59

Yes, absolutely. I think it's a great opportunity. It's a wonderful thing to be able to start in this time, especially where classical music needs more diversity than less.

Amy Wang-Hiller 27:10

Yeah, thank you so much for coming to the show. And I know we're approaching to the end. And one last thing that you hope to leave for the audience.

Adrian Anantawan 27:20

Yeah. So I would say that disability is really something that all of us will have at some point in life, and the more that we can support it for others who are experiencing it now or in the future, we are also supporting ourselves and people that we care about.

Amy Wang-Hiller 27:36

Great, thank you so much for coming to the show.

Adrian Anantawan 27:39

My pleasure.

Amy Wang-Hiller 27:45

Thank you for listening to the end of today's episode. You can find today's interview on YouTube, the audio version on Apple podcast, Spotify, and other platforms. Please leave your valuable review on the forum you are listened to and share your takeaway from today's episode. More detail will be in the show notes on my website. amywangviolin.com/podcast Be Kind, and I will see you next time.